My most recent blog on Islam illicited a reminder that I sometimes mention things on my blog without "footnoting" and can leave people scratching their heads. Abraham is called the Father of the three religions because of his parenting Ishmael and Isaac. Some call them the "Abrahamic Faiths." I contend that Islam is a Christian heresy, though some see it as a Jewish heresy with a higher respect for Jesus. It is a simplification of the Christian faith in that it rejects the Trinity and The Incarnation of Christ. Hence, it is heretical by Christian standards (and truth by their own claim). There is nothing new here. As regards this claim I wanted to provide some jumping off points to easy access to websites. The first is the ancient theologian John of Damascus' work. He was a contemporary of the Muslim movement and in rather strong language shares his thoughts.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
This overview from a Roman Catholic website. He discusses Belloc's warning of Islam's coming resurgence in the West, several decades before it happened. In fact, I found two differen sites quoting the same thing and one of the commenters mentioned that both were writing about Belloc at the same time.
http://www.realclearreligion.com/islam_a_christian_heresy.html
This is from an Eastern Orthodox blogger and would follow on the first blog reference...
http://southern-orthodoxy.blogspot.com/2005/06/islam-christian-heresy.html
His interest in John of Damascus is consistent with the veneration of the writings of the Church Fathers in Orthodoxy. I read John some years ago and was stunned when I came across the texts. It makes perfect sense. Muhammed was a pagan with regular contact with both Jews and Christians. There were two sons of Abraham. The first is Ishmael, fathered by Abraham and Hagar (at the insistence of Abraham's sterile wife Sara). Abraham had asked God to make Ishmael his heir but God said that he had another in mind. In Gen 18:20 God says, "I have blessed him [Ishmael] and I wil make him fruitful and make him very, very numerous. He will father twelve chieftains and I will mkae him into a big nation. But I will establish my covenant with Isaac." In Richard Friedman's Commentary on the Torah page 62 he writes "People sometimes speak of Ishmael as if the Bible were picturing him as the ancestor of the Arabs, but the Bible pictures Ishmael only as the ancestor of the Ishmaelites."] In Muslim thought, according to several internet sources, Ishmael is a prophet and Abraham took him and his mother to Mecca early on. There are also numerous Islamic commentaries which say that he is the son whom Abraham almost sacrificed. (google Ismael and Islam and you will find various sources)
At this site you will see a more protracted argument for the thesis. I am unfamiliar with the blog and its writer but thought it another example of someone saying the same thing.
http://adonis49.wordpress.com/2010/02/24/islam-is-one-of-the-%E2%80%9Cheretic%E2%80%9D-christian-jewish-sects/
In inter-religious dialogue the key element is being clear what you believe and getting clear on what they believe. In the end, we make truth claims and that means we reject those claims with which we disagree. It is a good idea to believe strongly and be respectful in disagreement. Killing heretics, however appealing, is not helpful. It leads to more killing. However, demanding "respect" and "tolerance" needs to go both ways. And I guess we all know that God is the One Who will sort it out in the end....
Thank you for the references. Of course if you had given them sooner I wouldn't have spent half a day looking them up reading Belloc and others. Just kidding, doing the research is 75% of the fun.
ReplyDeleteA man sees a dog and thinks what a nice dog and reaches down to pet him. But the dog growls and seems dangerous and now the man perceives the dog as a bad, dangerous dog. However he looks again and sees that the dog's leg is in the grip of a trap and it is injured. Now the man sees the dog as poor thing.
ReplyDeleteIt seems to me if we are innately good, created in the image and likeness of our creator, then talk of heresy is not really important.
Talk of heresy is important because though good we are fallen and as fallen creatures we are prone, out of sinful desires and out of errors in thought, prone to believe things which are not true.
ReplyDeleteTo say "heresy is not really important" is to say "Truth is not important." And if you are one of those folks who think all truth is relative then my response is, "well is that true or just true for you?"
I agree with your parable.
I do not think we are innately good, or if we are innatedly good I do not think it is devoid of any evil. My view of humans is not so high, but I did social work for a long time, plus I know myself. Those two things provide me all the counter evidence I need. At any rate, thanks for sharing your thoughts and igniting some conversation or thought!
No doubt we are all broken people and in need of forgiveness. No doubt we all seek truth. Might be wrong but do think it is part of Catholic thinking that we are all basically good but with the capacity for evil. Each and everyone of us are created in the image and likeness of the creator. Our perception of truth is conditioned by our culture, family, environment and life experience. All I am saying is there is often truth in other's perception. Don't find it constructive to call a religion or individual heretical.
ReplyDeleteThe current problem is that this is not an academic discussion in a world where Muslims claim a right and prophet directed duty to kill Christians and, most especially, American Christians. By the same token, Muslims will not be satisfied as long as the State of Israel exists. So Islam is at odds with with two out of the three branches of Father Abraham. If no one is a heretic, at least maybe someone is wrong. So getting an idea about how this all came about and why it exists seems to be desirable to me. Is there any God who is not a stone statue that says to go out and kill other believers?
ReplyDeleteBob, If you have a chance, please review the problems with Pelagianism. Here is a Catholic Encyclopedia link, on the subject.
ReplyDeleteThanks my friend I am much aware of theological theories having studied theology for many years.
ReplyDeleteRomans Christians interpret Aramaic teachings wrongly without Jewish Nasoreans/Ebionites scholars guiding them. Children of Israel never view Holy Spirit as God.
ReplyDeleteSince the Romans Christians were using own judgement without guidance from Jewish Nasoreans/Ebionites scholars close to Jesus (pbuh) . This led to misguided understanding of Israelite scriptures as can be seen when one read read Greek Christian scriptures.
They thought Holy Spirit is God as Holy Spirit being referred with the title God’s Spirit. And they thought Jesus is ‘special’ son of God as they believe Jesus becomes flesh due to Holy Spirit (claimed to be God) inside the womb of a woman. And they say Jesus is also God as they believe Jesus is Word of God that exist before given a flesh , that exist at the same time with the Spirit and Almighty God.
In short, Triune Oneness God only exist during the time of Romans.
thank you Anonymous for posting. I appreciate your input.
ReplyDeleteThe Ebionite approach was rejected by the wider church as insufficient and untrue. This was not simply a "Roman" decision.
The Jewish Scriptures were already in Greek at the time of the church. Many Jews knew only the Greek version of their sacred texts. It is true that translations are always interpretation, but the oldest existing texts today are the Greek, not Hebrew.
The notion of Divine Persons as expressed by the 4th Century Councils is certainly not spelled out in the Scripture, but the concepts of Word, Torah, Wisdom, Spirit are more than just adjectives describing God, they also seem to have a level of "divine" existence and "stand alongside" God as partners even in the Jewish Bible. This is a mystery beyond words.
The words of Jesus in many places indicate He is taking a divine initiative (HE forgives sin, He is condemned for making Himself equal with God!) and after His resurrection He tells them to baptize "in the Name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."
Paul, a generation after the crucifixion, certainly calls Jesus Lord and certainly speaks of Jesus in God-like terms.
In short, Triune, Oneness God existed from before time and forever, but was revealed most fully in 30AD and articulated in the time afterward....
This is the faith. I embrace it. You do not. But may you be blessed for your respectful way of sharing your thoughts... Peace